60mph front brake failure 06 Dyna

[Jeb]

Originally Posted by Gib

Nice one, Banquo - good pics too. Did you send it to
:- VOSA Vehicle Safety Branch, Croydon St, Bristol, BS5 0DA? They're the specialist bods that run the vehicle safety defect scheme.

As mentioned above, send for the attention of Martin Ryder

AFAIK the above is correct, but please feel free to point out any C%$K up's

[banquo]

Correspondence with VOSA can be found here.
Frankly, their approach seems to be that the manufacturer is always right, and that we are assumed guilty, until proven innocent. This is based on their 'research' which has determined that inspection of your brake pads is part of the pre-ride inspection, so if you don't notice that they are about to fail, then it's your fault. It is not possible to inspect the pads fully whilst they are fitted, especially the inboard pad on the rear wheel on a bagger, and I cannot imagine that this can be any serious defence in the event of a failure. You cannot imagine Ford or GM insisting that their customers put their vehicles up on blocks to check their pads, and neither is it reasonable to expect Harley owners to do the same, other than to check that enough friction material remains.
These pads are defective; that's all there is to it.
Ironically, this is the kind of thing you associate with idiots purchasing cheap imported junk at car boot sales and street markets; not something anyone should expect when paying through the nose for genuine OEM parts.
Please do send your pad to VOSA, with an account of what happened, and background details, mileage, etc. I held on to one of mine, in case they managed to 'lose' the other, and took photos before sending
anything.

[banquo]

Another call from MR of VOSA today. He has visited H-D technical centre, and been shown various bikes, where he stated that he can see up to 60% of the pad circumference without removing them - pretty sure I can't do that with mine, and on anything with hard bags?
Anyway, the upshot is they make lots of pads (or at least Hayes do) and so it's to be expected that some of them will be defective, and if you carry out the inspection every 2500 miles, as they recommend, then you will notice the failure before it occurs...... if it happens to be on the bit of visible pad. At least they no longer seem to be saying you need to take the pads off...
I had my pads out during winter service, and not only were they fine, but I'm very sure it was a lot less than 2500 miles before I had the puncture, had the wheel off, and found the delamination, because it was late Spring, and I'd hardly done any miles at all. I'll check my records, just to see how many it was. I have been following the Service Manual "Inspect Brake Pad Linings and Discs for wear" not the 'get your third eye out, and check to make sure they are not falling apart at the seams' bit.
The upshot is, VOSA see no reason to do anything, H-D don't admit there is a safety concern, and you're all on your own.
It's refreshing to know how much they care, isn't it...

[Gib]

Hi Jake, thanks for the update. I've read your correspondence with Martin Ryder and you've covered all the technical arguments brilliantly. I've nothing to add. What seems to have happened here is that your case was initially looked at by their resident "bike expert" Mr Ryder, who made an inept and incorrect initial assessment and since then has tried every trick in the book to justify his original assessment. In fact, he has now put himself (and VOSA's Defects Branch) into a position where he (or them) can't back off. Dreadful thing, pride, sometimes.

So then, what percentage error does the brake manufacturer allow in the production of the pads?

The more reports VOSA get now the better. Only hard evidence will get a result now.

[banquo]

I have written to the HDUK technical guru for a response, as VOSA could not reveal much of what had been said, as it was correspondence between HDUK and VOSA and thus confidential. Fair enough, but they were my pads, and I think I'm entitled to a detailed response. I don't understand manufacturers over this kind of thing. They do themselves no favours at all, and if I wasn't disillusioned enough before, I sure am now.

Do they really want their customers to die?

[banquo]

Well, finally received the final answer from VOSA. Their concern for our welfare is, of course, overwhelming:

Our ref: VSD 22407 05 March 2009
Dear Mr Beatson,
HARLEY DAVIDSON FXST - BRAKE PAD DELAMINATION
As discussed via telephone, the reasons Harley Davidson has declared for not taking action over this concern are: that the delamination of the brake pads takes place over a period of time. As the inspection intervals, for your machine, are pre­ride, 2,500 miles and 5,000 miles, if the inspection is carried out correctly any defects on the brake pads would be noted and rectified before any significant deterioration had taken place.

Having now inspected some Harley Davidson motorcycles it is apparent that a pre­ride check of the front brake pads is viable.

Harley Davidson deal with many brake pads per year both in new machines and aftersales. It is unrealistic to say that there will never be a problem with any of the brake pads. The ratio of all brake pad technical issues against production is extremely low.

It would be simplistic to say that the brake pads should only be changed when they are worn to the 1.02mm limit. Pads are also changed, for example, when they are contaminated, damaged or glazed.
Therefore, VOSA considers that there is insufficient evidence at this time to progress this investigation.
Thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention.
I hope this letter supplies a better understanding of our thoughts with this issue and please do not hesitate to contact me on the above telephone number if there are any further points you wish to discuss.

Saving lives, safer roads, cutting crime, protecting the environment

Given the history of this affair, of course none of this comes as any surprise at all. The only progress that has been made is an admission, finally, that this is a case of actual pad delamination, and no longer alleged delamination. For some reason, having visited HDUK, his conclusion is limited to the front pads being visible. There is no mention of the rear pads. I can see the top and bottom of my rear pads after removing the bags, and using a mirror for the bottom. I'm not at all sure how someone with a RK or Ultra with fixed bags would have any chance of inspecting their pads, and the idea that pads should be inspected, not just for wear, but also closely, to ensure that they are not about to fail, not only at every 2500 mile service interval, but also as part of the pre-ride checklist, just beggars belief.
Firstly, at least 90% of Harley riders will be unqualified to carry out the inspection (and they can't take it to the dealer without riding it, and as they can't ride it without carrying out the pre-ride inspection, we should prepare ourselves for the roads being full of Harley-Davidson Factory Trained Technicians, running around on their ServiCars, so they can inspect everyone's brakes before they set off for work in the morning...).
Secondly, you cannot carry out the kind of inspection required to verify the condition of the pad circumference without removing them. Yes, you can see the top and the bottom, but you can't see the area facing the axle, or the part confined within the caliper (outer circumference).
Also, in order to inspect the pads to the degree required would involve spraying brake cleaner all over them, to remove caked on dust, which fills any fissures with hard caked material, so you can't see them. The pix of my pads were after cleaning, and the surfaces were totally obscured with crud, and the fissures were very hard to detect.

Quote: " It is unrealistic to say that there will never be a problem with any of the brake pads. The ratio of all brake pad technical issues against production is extremely low."

This statement is the most damning of the entire letter. Effectively, it says that it's OK for some pads not to be safe, because they will probably be on someone else's bike; not yours. If we agree that total brake pad loss is an event likely to cause death or serious injury (and although VOSA previously have said otherwise, I think it's fair to say that most of us would feel less than comfortable knowing that our pads could fail without warning, and by definition, during a time when braking was actually required), then the effective response is to say that riders of Harley-Davidson motorcycles are expendable. “We can't guarantee that your brakes will work, and the result of our failure to ensure your safety is that you, or others, may die.”
But don't worry, according to VOSA you are entirely responsible for your own death, because by inspecting what little you can see of your brake pads on a daily basis, you can become the Final Inspection Team of Harley-Davidson motorcycles, and identify our product defects before they kill you, all the time remembering that, statistically, it's more likely that it will be one of your mates who dies, and not you.

How many of you have an Owners Manual, or a Factory Repair Manual?
Most of you I guess have at least one.
Notice how many warning signs there are in there, in bold type, with the warning symbol, and a note to the effect that doing something that only a complete idiot would even think of doing, could result in a loss of control of the motorcycle, and could cause death or serious injury.
There must be hundreds of them. but in the pre-ride checklist, there is nothing related to the braking system that justifies such a warning. There is no paragraph that states you must inspect your braking system for defective pads, and that failure to do so could result in death or serious injury.
Do yourself a favour and print this out: stick it in your Owner's Manual so you never forget.

Warning: The Harley-Davidson Motor Company cannot guarantee that your brakes will function when you need them. Brake failure may result in loss of control of the motorcycle, which could cause death or serious injury. Always ensure that you inspect your brake pads fully, as part of your pre-ride inspection, and cancel your travel plans if you find any defects. Don't bother telling us about it if you do find anything; we really don't care.

To be absolutely fair, this is really a response to VOSA's indifference to this issue, and I have, as yet, had nothing from HDUK.
I have however written to them, requesting a formal reply.

I expect VOSA think this is the end of this, but it's not; at least as far as I am concerned. To serve the manufacturer, at the expense of the taxpayer's safety is not acceptable as far as I'm concerned, so it's time to regroup and consider what to do next. Will wait and see what I get back from HDUK first.

[Gib]

You have a pm, Jake.

[gilesgraphics]

Well I have decided to keep the Bob but I am no longer letting Harley anywhere near her.. she is in for a major overhaul next week with an independant who comes highly recommended...
Also the front brake is going and I have a Hawg Halters 6 pot going on
(I bought a pair of them just in case I want to go twin disc later) they feature a twin seal set to stop dust etc getting on to the main seals (pretty good idea this) I also have a brand new disc.. the rear will be replaced ASAP but I am now officially living in poverty

[banquo]

Glad to hear you're not put off GG. These Hawg-Halters look good...

Still no answer from HDUK....

[patrick]

[quote=banquo;660609]Glad to hear you're not put off GG. These Hawg-Halters look good...

Yeah good for you GG - FTF
Be interested to hear how the HH caliper performs.