Advice on finding a WLA 45

[45Brit]

Patrick and I differ on this, but we both know what the other one means, and why . Both positions are valid, depending on what you are seeking to demonstrate.

personally, I'm surprised this bike got through. The frame is plainly of much later after-market construction, many of the fittings are obviously not even of period type and the ploughshare hanging on the frame tubes is clearly illegal for the same reason that Jags no longer have the 'pouncing cat' on the bonnet, ie it is a 'dangerous fitment'

I suspect that a combination of a VMCC certificate and an application from a well-known, long-established dealer ( it seems to have been registered quite recently ) swung the balance; I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the current vendor's intended strategy was to register it and re-sell at an increased price on that basis.

my experience is that if you have a period-looking bike with proper period numbers, a dating certificate, and the frame hasn't been cut and welded, you are probably ok. However that varies from one DVLA office to another.

there's a whole can of worms regarding replica bikes of the S&S sort. Neil Middleditch has a lovely replica Brough Superior, built in the late 80s, but there's much controversy as to what this bike really amounts to and it has a modern number ( although not a Q plate ). I saw a very interesting knuckle at a UK chopper builders a while ago, all repop parts; is this a knuckle? Up to you, really.

[Limey_Dave]

I mentioned in the thread some time back when this was for sale that I didn't understand how this got an age related number with a custom frame.I think the VMCC form mislead by omision in stating that Harleys of that period carried no frame number.This implied that the frame was original.Also strange is the dealers apraisal form states no vin number,I would have thought the DVLA would have supplied one when registering it.
In my opinion also,the engine number is not correct.
The 4,W,L,2,and 0 are of one period and the 5,9,and 8 of another.
With the "open top" 4,the 9 would have had a straight back and the 8 would have had loops of unequal size looking like it had been stamped upside down.

[45Brit]

given the Servicar gearbox and John Deere colours, this bike does rather have a whiff of 'grey import' about it.

I would partly agree about the VMCC. They aren't HD experts and the whole 'repro bike' thing is rather outside their expertise. They certainly wouldn't write that on a form for a BSA, say, because they know perfectly well that a BSA should have one. They also have little interest in choppers and don't have any qualms about refusing to date them. That said, there is a view within some sections of the VMCC that a Kooter Brown 1970s chopper frame is just as valid as, say, a Seeley.

The vendor in question is a well-known, long established dealer who makes extensive use of their dating scheme for his own purposes, frequently registering and re-registering machines, and they are undoubtedly accustomed to accepting his expertise, which to be fair is considerable. So are DVLA, I dare say.

I don't believe a private individual presenting this bike for inspection would have got away with it.

[yobtaf]

Wonder which DVLA office this vendor uses!
Guess they never pulled it in for inspection maybe?
Just got papers in for my chief & inspection next tues, was told criteria is age/value/(few other things) bit coy about specifics.
My understanding is for age related plate(thanks patrick) check engine/frame numbers/match paperwork,also to see that it is a good representation of the factory produced model for that year.
As just looking @paperwork bike could still be a 60`s/70`s radical chop.

Have been pondering how indepth/required the DVLA fella goes on his inspect to know what he`s looking at, bit of research would be required as far as factory/font style etc.

[Panhead Boris]

Jeez

Just to clarify, I wasn't recommending that shop, or that bike - just listing an example of what is available. I think that 'theme' bikes are best left to shouty F&*k-wits on Discovery Channel.

Who is to say what 'original' means? In the case of a 45 I would assume that would mean a high probability of green paint, and 18 inch wheels - which very few seem to be. (Excuse my ignorance on 45's if I'm wrong)

Lucky you didn't ask what oil to run it on...........

[45Brit]

varies a fair bit from office to office but they are usually looking for a bike with genuine 'period' numbers and a reasonably 'period' appearance. DVLA view is that the chassis is the bike for registration purposes.

cutting and/or welding to the chassis can be a 'fail'

I did learn that VMCC will no longer issue dating certs for un-numbered chassis or engines, you have to give it a number. They stopped doing this about 3 years ago, and oddly enough the 'report' states that restoration period was about 3 years.

I did know a local 'chopper kiddie' a few years ago who kept a 'slave' chassis for the specific purpose of registering his bikes, he then rebuilt them and re-used the stock rolling chassis again....

[kevscrivener]

Originally Posted by Panhead Boris

.

Who is to say what 'original' means? In the case of a 45 I would assume that would mean a high probability of green paint, and 18 inch wheels - which very few seem to be. (Excuse my ignorance on 45's if I'm wrong)

Lucky you didn't ask what oil to run it on...........

Straight 50 (puts tin hat on and runs like f*ck)

Actually Boris you're right about the originality. I always tell people that they were realistically the first Harley "customs" since most of them (I'd guess at least 90%) are ex-military of course and were civilianised by Fred Warr, Pride & Clarke and a host of others.

Albert Emmett once told me he bought his first one in 1947 for the princely sum of £17. 10 shillings. Ran it till the late 1960's and it ended its days (totally worn out) in the foundations of Southport's sea defences!

Always makes me smile when I see one described as "original" on e-bay.

[dodgyloner]

Originally Posted by kevscrivener

Straight 50 (puts tin hat on and runs like f*ck)

Oi! No oil related threads!

That bike is a pile of associated bits and not worth even half the asking price. Probably the only assemblies worth having for a proper 45 project are the most of the engine, gearbox, forks and mudguards.

Agree with Dave that engine number is an obvious home renumbering job - it would bring unwelcome attention from Officer Dibble.

I think the frame could be from a Big Twin flathead or looks very similar - maybe aftermarket. The reverse gearbox is the same as the ordinary one with about three extra cogs in it.

[45Brit]

I was thinking £2,000 to £2,500 based on my usual yardstick for specials, ie value of usable bits ( engine, gearbox, clutch, mudguards, handlebars, saddle, exhaust, forks & wheels less the cost of making the forks safe ) plus a small premium for seeing it running.

the frame, I don't know. Clearly a custom frame and probably not originally built to house a 45, but beyond that I wouldn't hazard a guess.

[45grum]

I remember when I first saw that poor 45 and thought to myself "why". it is horrible and whoever it was at the VMCC should be ashamed of themselves for verifying it. as for the front rockers, what the hell is going on there.
Someone should rescue the few good bits and cut the rest up with a gas axe and weigh it in for scrap.